Topic: does anyone recognize this logo?

http://i36.tinypic.com/6gxy0l.jpg

fyi, the logo could be upside down.

i have seen a very similar logo of a taiwanese porcelain/glassware company.  not exactly the same but close.


this is what's underneath the pot. 

http://i37.tinypic.com/2dkmq2q.jpg

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

I have no idea about the maker, but it looks like a good and serious maker. By googling, I found this website:
http://www.jcty.com/

Btw if you don't read Chinese, you can always do this: go to translate.google.com, choose "web text" from the panel, and copy/paste in a website name, and then choose translation preference, such as Chinese to English. The text you get will be a bit messed up but you may get a 60% idea of what they say :D I do it sometimes to a Japanese tea blog that I like but can't read :D

門前塵土三千丈,不到薰爐茗碗旁

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

biloba, thanks for the link.  i can see the logo on the website.  now onto some translating.  who is the guy with the beard?  do you think that he is the only pot maker?

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

shuangjiang wrote:

biloba, thanks for the link.  i can see the logo on the website.  now onto some translating.  who is the guy with the beard?  do you think that he is the only pot maker?

I didn't see relevant info. on the website. And the stamp on the bottom of your pot is complicated. I can't read all the characters. It seems there is another signature a long with Wang Jinchuan (who is the guy with the beard).
In my impress, the rule of the trade is, if an artist himself makes it, the stamp will be just his name or "xxx make" (xxx 制 or 製). But very often a well-established artist will open his own studio (Wang Jinchuan does), and there will be a group of people working in that studio. Then if the pot is not entirely made by the artist himself (often made by assistants or apprentices), the stamp will be "xxx studio" (xxx陶藝 or xxx制陶). Your pot has both the stamp of Wang Jinchuan and the stamp of the studio. So either way is possible. Since it also has the trademark in the inner bottom, it looks more like made by his studio instead of entirely by himself.
But this is just a general rule, not law kind of thing. I also saw pots with stamps "xxx make", but don't think they look like artist-made. Overall the stamps don't tell much, still it's mainly the quality of the pot that tells, and that I know very little of :-p

門前塵土三千丈,不到薰爐茗碗旁

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

It's odd also that he seems to be a Yixing potter, but making pots using a wheel.

A book I was reading today (Appreciation of Zisha Teapots (砂壺匯赏), Dynasty Culture and Art Publishing House, Hong Kong, p26) said:

Porcelain can be molded by pulling the clay on a rotational wheel or pouring slurries into a model(9), but this is not practical for zisha clay for its sandy property[sic], which implicates[sic] that potters only can beat the zisha clay into strips with a spade and then join the strips together.

It seems safe to assume that Yixing clay can now be wheel turned, since some Chaozhou potters have been making wheel turned pots using Yixing clay for quite some time (as well as using local clay), but are there many artists in Yixing now using this style? What has to be done to the clay to make it turnable on a wheel - does it just have to not be too sandy and have more liquid?

It's also interesting to note how busy the chops / logos / etc. are getting on some of these new pots... I was talking about this with a friend yesterday. One of my books (I'll try to find a citation / quote at home) was saying how back in the Ming / Qing dynasties, potters would intentionally try to be as modest as possible, by putting their seal in a really inconspicuous location (like under the lid or under the handle). I am a fan of the "less is more" philosophy.

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

i have used the pots extensively.  they both make very nice tea for me.  the pots feel great in my hands, everything is evenly balanced.  thanks for the comments on my humble pots.

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

william wrote:

It seems safe to assume that Yixing clay can now be wheel turned, since some Chaozhou potters have been making wheel turned pots using Yixing clay for quite some time (as well as using local clay), but are there many artists in Yixing now using this style? What has to be done to the clay to make it turnable on a wheel - does it just have to not be too sandy and have more liquid?

He adds a kaolin in order to make in this fashion, in fact some of yixing potters today use this method as well, but only unrecognized ones.

一杯一杯復一杯

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

william wrote:

A book I was reading today (Appreciation of Zisha Teapots (砂壺匯赏), Dynasty Culture and Art Publishing House, Hong Kong, p26) said:

Porcelain can be molded by pulling the clay on a rotational wheel or pouring slurries into a model(9), but this is not practical for zisha clay for its sandy property[sic], which implicates[sic] that potters only can beat the zisha clay into strips with a spade and then join the strips together.

It seems safe to assume that Yixing clay can now be wheel turned, since some Chaozhou potters have been making wheel turned pots using Yixing clay for quite some time (as well as using local clay), but are there many artists in Yixing now using this style? What has to be done to the clay to make it turnable on a wheel - does it just have to not be too sandy and have more liquid?

Most clay is "plastic" enough to be throwable on a wheel with little to no additions. Just the other day, I threw a tea tray using sculpture clay, which most potters consider "unthrowable" because of its high grog (particles rougher than sand) content. The tough part is throwing grogged or sanded clay thin or tall without parts falling down. Walt Park has easily thrown yixing clays with no additions, and remarks that it's very friendly on the wheel if you don't throw it tall.

Most thrown yixing pots I've seen have little to no large mesh sands in them. It's likely that kaolin is not added, because it would adversely affect color in the quantities that would be necessary to make the clay plastic enough to throw (usually 10-20%). Instead, ball clay with similar natural colorants to the yixing body it intends to plasticize would be a likely addition. Many ball clays ranging from white to dark brown exist naturally.

Even more likely, plasticizers like bentonite (an ultra plastic small particle clay) are added in portions of 2 percent or less. See here: http://digitalfire.com/4sight/material/ … e_106.html . There are other organic plasticizers that burn out more or less completely, but I'm not sure that yixing potters have access to these like we do in the US?

Another trick potters have used is adding organic compounds to clay and letting the clay age further. The microbiotic activity in the clay rearranges the clay particles and makes them smaller, and making the clay body stronger and more workable on the wheel. In Japan, it was common for potters to urinate in the clay or add vinegar before aging to achieve this.

~j

"Beware the man of one book" ~Thomas Aquinas

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Most clay is "plastic" enough to be throwable on a wheel with little to no additions

You told it the exact opposite, the reason they do it on a wheel is its clay has no plasticity. So it's not available to make in more delicate fashion. See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plasticity

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Most thrown yixing pots I've seen have little to no large mesh sands in them. It's likely that kaolin is not added, because it would adversely affect color in the quantities that would be necessary to make the clay plastic enough to throw (usually 10-20%). Instead, ball clay with similar natural colorants to the yixing body it intends to plasticize would be a likely addition. Many ball clays ranging from white to dark brown exist naturally.

What if iron oxide is added to make it red, manganese oxide is added to make it black/blue. Ball clay or Tiao Sha is done to solve the inferiority in crafting. The reason why his method is not good is, it will kill 'breathing quality', naturality and patina is artificial. To make this, yixing clay has to be filtered in 200~300-hole and add with a bit of kaolin.

My friend met Wang Jin Chuan in person, and asked his friend-potters about his reputation in Yixing. The truth is he's only famous in Taiwan and Korea. Bad opinion is he sells his pots as expensive as traditional-made yixing teapots. But one can produce hundreds of yixing pots a day if using wheel-thrown method. If wheel-thrown is that easy with natural clay, then how come other money-loving none-famous potters would go along?

He probably made lots of money, and it happens to many Yixing potters. Making his name famous by donating to communities. Common pattern is selling their pots abroad and try to earn Yixing potter level with money. Example is Fan Wei Jun and Ge Ming Xiang. A year ago, they were none, but 2008 Official Yixing Potter Association credited them as 'crafts and arts master'. Truth is they are very famous abroad, yet in Yixing they are known as potters who let their students make their pots, not valued potters. Any wise collectors are informed enough not to buy their pots.

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Even more likely, plasticizers like bentonite (an ultra plastic small particle clay) are added in portions of 2 percent or less. See here: http://digitalfire.com/4sight/material/ … e_106.html . There are other organic plasticizers that burn out more or less completely, but I'm not sure that yixing potters have access to these like we do in the US?

Thanks for informing the dark side.

bearsbearsbears wrote:

In Japan, it was common for potters to urinate in the clay or add vinegar before aging to achieve this.

Do you have any source for this? I mean, who would be pleased enough to buy pot made of 'peed' clay? If it's true, at least I've found one reason not to buy Japanese pots.

一杯一杯復一杯

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

I was just talking to a man from Chaozhou who does business in Yixing. I asked him about Chaozhou pots and during our conversation he told me: Chaozhou pots are a lot quicker to make. You can make 5-6 in a day because they are thrown on a wheel. He also said before '98 Yixing potters did not know how to throw clay, and they learned around that time how to do it from Chazhou people. (seems a bit exaggerated, clay is thrown all over the world; but then again, you don't see a potters wheel in Yixing. They use a lot of molds. There is a round platform, but it is spun with the hand and just used to smooth a finished pot, there is no foot powered or electric powered wheels in studios I have seen).

So I guess I didn't discover anything new, but I can confirm that there is heresay about hand thrown pots in Yixing. They ought to be pretty eassy to pick out, though.

红焙浅瓯新火活,龙团小碾斗晴窗

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

chrl42 wrote:

You told it the exact opposite, the reason they do it on a wheel is its clay has no plasticity. So it's not available to make in more delicate fashion. See http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/plasticity

I said it exactly right. From here: http://pottery.about.com/od/typesofclay … owclay.htm :

Throwing clays must have a high degree of plasticity, they cannot absorb too much water while being thrown, and they must be strong enough to hold their shape while being worked.

chrl42 wrote:

What if iron oxide is added to make it red, manganese oxide is added to make it black/blue.

What if? My guess is more additives are added to yixing clay than most yixing potters would admit. In fact, unless the potters are mining the clay themselves, there's no telling what additions to the yixing the clay wholesaler has mixed in.

chrl42 wrote:

Ball clay or Tiao Sha is done to solve the inferiority in crafting. The reason why his method is not good is, it will kill 'breathing quality', naturality and patina is artificial. To make this, yixing clay has to be filtered in 200~300-hole and add with a bit of kaolin.

There are many 200-300 mesh ball clays that have natural white/yellow/red/brown color and better working properties than kaolin alone, particularly for handbuilding. While it's likely that addition of any clay would change properties such as absorption, the addition of ball clay might actually improve the absorption rate. Yixing's absorption rate is quite low for lower fired stonewares, at 3-5%. Local California stonewares fired to yixing temperatures usually have absorption rates of 4-10%, sometimes more.

chrl42 wrote:

My friend met Wang Jin Chuan in person, and asked his friend-potters about his reputation in Yixing. The truth is he's only famous in Taiwan and Korea. Bad opinion is he sells his pots as expensive as traditional-made yixing teapots. But one can produce hundreds of yixing pots a day if using wheel-thrown method. If wheel-thrown is that easy with natural clay, then how come other money-loving none-famous potters would go along?

Being a potter myself, i know this claim of "hundreds of yixing pots in a day" if using a wheel is unfounded hyperbole usually espoused by teapot shop owners to augment belief in the authenticity of their pots or the authority of their voice. Truthfully, the clay would simply not be dry enough after throwing to attach handles, knobs, and spouts. Even after making the teapot body on the wheel, the handbuilding involved in the other parts of the teapot are too laborious to produce good-looking pots in those numbers.

Making the basic shape of a pot is only the beginning of making a pot on the wheel. Any changes to the body afterward (such as attachments, surface decoration, carving, burnishing, etc) require a lot of time, an artful eye and a skilled hand. Even then, the pot must be trimmed. I can throw a teapot body and lid in about 10 minutes, but the teapot takes at least two days to finish before its first firing. All the time spent trimming, carving, burnishing, and attaching is time I can't spend throwing: make 50 pots in one day and you have created a very busy week for yourself. After the first firing, the pot has to be sanded and cleaned before the second firing. Doing that with hundreds of pots is impossible unless multiple potters work on the same pots at different stages, which would mean not one potter making multiple hundreds of pots a day, but perhaps 5 potters making 50.

The most efficient way to make 100 pots a day is to slipcast them. Slipcast pots are uniform in shape and require minimal finishing. Just dry them and put them in the kiln.

chrl42 wrote:

Thanks for informing the dark side.

I don't know what you intend by this, but i'll assume it's kind. :)

Potters in the US and Europe have a much better handle on the science behind what they do than the crafters in yixing. Or maybe the yixing craftsmen do know, but choose to perpetuate the myths that make yixing teapots sell to shops and tea drinkers.

Potters here don't believe in "magic" clays; they formulate the clays based on the properties they want. The idea that "most pieces break in the kiln" doesn't exist here: most US potters know how to mix clay bodies with good working properties that don't break or warp in the kiln and operate wood/gas/electric kilns so the kiln doesn't break their pieces.

Additionally, our product liability laws mean US potters are under great pressure to make food-safe wares, often to the point of paranoia: no lead in the glazes, no underfired bodies, no chemical additions in amounts that would compromise the health of the person using the piece.

Truthfully, if you want a pot that makes the best tea, you could find higher fired pots that not only retain heat better but also have higher absorption rates than yixing, pots made in Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Europe and the US. Unfortunately, high firings burn off burnishings, so these pots don't shine like Yixing. They also tend to be too large for gongfu. Also, because they're handmade, they're usually very pricey. Personally, I have found that volcanic stonewares from Taiwan (not the mock-yixings, which come from similar clay mined in Taiwan) make great oolong.

I recall the reference to peeing in clay being in the book Hamada Potter by Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada. This was done to add ammonia to the clay, which speeds aging by providing organic material for the microorganisms to feed on.

~j

"Beware the man of one book" ~Thomas Aquinas

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

bearsbearsbears wrote:

I said it exactly right. From here: http://pottery.about.com/od/typesofclay … owclay.htm :

Throwing clays must have a high degree of plasticity, they cannot absorb too much water while being thrown, and they must be strong enough to hold their shape while being worked.

Still wrong, this comment never proves that it has better plasticity than yixing clay. That it could work to prove your sentence, 'most of clay has enough plasticity to be wheel-thrown'. If it's so plastic, then how come it's not able to craft in more delicate fashion, like natural pattern Or how come couldn't it even just remove 'horizental line' that is a sign of wheel-thrown pot.

bearsbearsbears wrote:

What if? My guess is more additives are added to yixing clay than most yixing potters would admit. In fact, unless the potters are mining the clay themselves, there's no telling what additions to the yixing the clay wholesaler has mixed in.

Read the line again, your first comment was 'adding kaolin is uncolorful enough' to be a sign of not being able to add to yixing clay.

bearsbearsbears wrote:

There are many 200-300 mesh ball clays that have natural white/yellow/red/brown color and better working properties than kaolin alone, particularly for handbuilding. While it's likely that addition of any clay would change properties such as absorption, the addition of ball clay might actually improve the absorption rate. Yixing's absorption rate is quite low for lower fired stonewares, at 3-5%. Local California stonewares fired to yixing temperatures usually have absorption rates of 4-10%, sometimes more.

Prove me then, adding ball clays would open micro-small holes made by 200~300-hole sieve to 3-5%.

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Being a potter myself, i know this claim of "hundreds of yixing pots in a day" if using a wheel is unfounded hyperbole usually espoused by teapot shop owners to augment belief in the authenticity of their pots or the authority of their voice. Truthfully, the clay would simply not be dry enough after throwing to attach handles, knobs, and spouts. Even after making the teapot body on the wheel, the handbuilding involved in the other parts of the teapot are too laborious to produce good-looking pots in those numbers.

Making the basic shape of a pot is only the beginning of making a pot on the wheel. Any changes to the body afterward (such as attachments, surface decoration, carving, burnishing, etc) require a lot of time, an artful eye and a skilled hand. Even then, the pot must be trimmed. I can throw a teapot body and lid in about 10 minutes, but the teapot takes at least two days to finish before its first firing. All the time spent trimming, carving, burnishing, and attaching is time I can't spend throwing: make 50 pots in one day and you have created a very busy week for yourself. After the first firing, the pot has to be sanded and cleaned before the second firing. Doing that with hundreds of pots is impossible unless multiple potters work on the same pots at different stages, which would mean not one potter making multiple hundreds of pots a day, but perhaps 5 potters making 50.

The most efficient way to make 100 pots a day is to slipcast them. Slipcast pots are uniform in shape and require minimal finishing. Just dry them and put them in the kiln.

http://www.freehead.com/thread-6619972-1-1.html
See that clip, and tell me it's not mass-production. Wang Jin Chuan is a potter than runs studio with lots of student as well.This is where my comment starts 'hundreds of pots'

chrl42 wrote:

Thanks for informing the dark side.

I don't know what you intend by this, but i'll assume it's kind. :)

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Potters in the US and Europe have a much better handle on the science behind what they do than the crafters in yixing. Or maybe the yixing craftsmen do know, but choose to perpetuate the myths that make yixing teapots sell to shops and tea drinkers.

Potters here don't believe in "magic" clays; they formulate the clays based on the properties they want. The idea that "most pieces break in the kiln" doesn't exist here: most US potters know how to mix clay bodies with good working properties that don't break or warp in the kiln and operate wood/gas/electric kilns so the kiln doesn't break their pieces.

Now you are moving over to chauvinism, from topic started by your unconscious thought. Whether it's magic or not. Truth is 1) I will never buy pots made in US, 2) I am very satisfied with the quality of yixing clay as astheticism should be based on subjective point of view, and tell me. What kind of 'high-qualiy' Yixing you know of? or have been able to use them?

bearsbearsbears wrote:

Truthfully, if you want a pot that makes the best tea, you could find higher fired pots that not only retain heat better but also have higher absorption rates than yixing, pots made in Taiwan, Korea, Japan, Europe and the US. Unfortunately, high firings burn off burnishings, so these pots don't shine like Yixing. They also tend to be too large for gongfu. Also, because they're handmade, they're usually very pricey. Personally, I have found that volcanic stonewares from Taiwan (not the mock-yixings, which come from similar clay mined in Taiwan) make great oolong.

You don't even know the fact that absorbtiveness itself isn't a measurement for tea tasting. See my previous comment http://teadrunk.org/viewtopic.php?id=33 , and about ideal degree of apsorbtiveness. High absorbing can just eat away with aroma, Yixing clay's reputation was from 'double' absorbing quality that stands aroma not losing. And is that why so many Korean potters (I am Korean myself) get lost in Yixing teapot, then Korean tea culture is moving over to Puerh and Yixing, from 1000 yrs of history of green. Is that why Koreans have been brewing with 'mud clay' teapot for the most delicate green tea? Is that what you brew your green tea in? Clayware? not porcelain? Or you wanna start clayware vs porcelain for green again? And don't tell me Japan had developed better level of pottery than Korea. Japan's first Chawan, Ido was made by Koreans that kidnapped Koreans were the father of Japanese pottery

bearsbearsbears wrote:

I recall the reference to peeing in clay being in the book Hamada Potter by Bernard Leach and Shoji Hamada. This was done to add ammonia to the clay, which speeds aging by providing organic material for the microorganisms to feed on.

Did they say the Japanese still practice that fashion?

一杯一杯復一杯

Re: does anyone recognize this logo?

chrl42 wrote:

Still wrong, this comment never proves that it has better plasticity than yixing clay. That it could work to prove your sentence, 'most of clay has enough plasticity to be wheel-thrown'. If it's so plastic, then how come it's not able to craft in more delicate fashion, like natural pattern Or how come couldn't it even just remove 'horizental line' that is a sign of wheel-thrown pot.

It's obvious from the above statement alone that you know too little about the science behind clay and pottery craft for me to continue to have a useful conversation with you. Our opinions on this issue are too differently informed.

Additionally, I think your less than ideal grasp of English and my not speaking your native language unfortunately make any such conversation impossible. I don't quite understand what you're writing, and your response shows you didn't fully understand what I wrote.

Lastly, the tenor of your voice has moved from argumentation to insult. Please direct your ire elsewhere.

~j

"Beware the man of one book" ~Thomas Aquinas