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1 (edited by william 2008-12-15 20:53:17)

Topic: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

I have seen in a couple of places folks using tea boats with what looks like a smooth glaze over a cracked glaze... finally realized tonight that the text on there:
"中國土產畜產進出口公司福建省分公司廈門支公司"
is the same as the 22 character seal on the bottom of the earlier 'qing yin zhongguo wulong cha' pots. Ithink the middle is '贈品' (?).

http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/tea_boat1.jpg

Presumably, these were a promotional item that went along with the pot... at least from what I can gather from this post, they were a set with a tea boat and 6 cups. I'm working on translating the rest of the post, which has information about both the pots and the accessories that came with some of them, which I'll try to post to this thread. Even if you can't read Chinese characters, the whole thread is worth skimming for the pictures.
http://forum.potsart.com/viewthread.php … 8#pid45909

the post also has this image of a VERY well "seasoned" one:
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/tea_boat2.jpg

Some of the chaozhou gong fu pictures / videos I've seen show people using boats that look very much like this, and that may explain why they're so prized (since they're rare). I have seen one available in an auction, but only along with a teapot, and the combination is very expensive. Has anyone seen one of these for sale, or does anyone know someone who has one?

If anyone can find a good summary of which time periods different seals were used, that would be great. I have definitely seen narrow 22 character seals, wide 22 characters seals, as well as standard 4 character 中國宜興 seals. Not sure about whether the 6 character "meng chen" seal (荊溪南孟臣製) was used on these pots.

For scale (not sure, but assume that's a 6 cup pot probably):
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/tea_boat3.jpg

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Hook me up when you find more than 1 teaboat.

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

'贈品' just means promotional gift, or gift item.

红焙浅瓯新火活,龙团小碾斗晴窗

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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

A couple of 22 character seals. These two are both from auction sites; the first one I'm pretty sure is fake, esp. since 3 pots from 2 different vendors with 2 different lid seals have the same exact seal... could happen but seems unlikely given the number of irregularities with seals from that era. Second one, I'm not so sure about - likely fake as well, though. Will try to post more pictures of the pots in the show your teaware thread.

http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/22_char_seal1.jpg
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/22_char_seal2.jpg

Lid seal from first pot (巧英; qiǎo yīng):
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/qing_yin_lid_seal1.jpg


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Here is a picture I took in Yixing. They are all fake 请饮中国乌龙茶 shuiping teapots. But they had pictures of flowers on the back instead of the address off the xiangxing tea shop in HK. Did they have Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots with flowers on the reverse side as well?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_IKwzCKioUl4/SWV98khEZxI/AAAAAAAAAPg/No0g7qjJRVA/s640/yixing%20003.jpg

红焙浅瓯新火活,龙团小碾斗晴窗

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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

LaoChaGui wrote:

Here is a picture I took in Yixing. They are all fake 请饮中国乌龙茶 shuiping teapots. But they had pictures of flowers on the back instead of the address off the xiangxing tea shop in HK. Did they have Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots with flowers on the reverse side as well?

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_IKwzCKioUl4/SWV98 … %20003.jpg

Two different pots... The Xiang Xing Cha Hang ones are separate from the "please drink" pots, which IIRC were commissioned by the Xiamen, Fujian branch of CNNP.

I'm not 100% sure about the ones w/ flowers on the reverse side, but they were probably made at some point, though I don't think in the 70s.

There were other shui ping made with a standard set of drawings on one side - typically bamboo, chrysanthemum, etc. - I think usually in sets of 4? Similar pots were made for one of the apprentice exams (probably a lower level one) - the ones you see are usually from 1972.

Of course, these ones may well not really be "fake" as long as they're not trying to sell them as antiques. It looks like the writing on these ones is all in one line.


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

A few seals / two pots from Tim... his are all surprisingly clean:
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/tims_qingyin1.jpg
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/tims_qingyin2.jpg

[Click to enlarge this one]
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/TN_tims_qingyin3.jpg


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

I came across this pot in Kunming recently in the shop of one of the few people who sell (genuine) old tea.  She claimed she & her husband bought it 10 years ago in Yixing and at that time the pot was already about 10 years old.

The seller appears to have been reasonably honest in the past and seemed genuine about this pot.  Irrespective of it's age and authenticity, of which I can't be completely sure, it appears to be made of reasonably good quality hongni and since it didn't cost a huge amount of money compared to brand new pots of a reasonable quality I decided to buy, as much as a curiosity as anything else.

Not finished cleaning it yet, so not sure about how it makes tea.

http://www.nadacha.co.uk/images/blogs/pleasedrink1.jpg
http://www.nadacha.co.uk/images/blogs/pleasedrink2.jpg
http://www.nadacha.co.uk/images/blogs/pleasedrink3.jpg
http://www.nadacha.co.uk/images/blogs/pleasedrink4.jpg

Not sure if it's obvious in the picture below - there's a lot of horizontal tooling marks inside.  Not wheel thrown I think, but probably handmade on a small hand turned wheel.  Different from many handmade pots which have tooling marks vertically in the inside of the pot.
http://www.nadacha.co.uk/images/blogs/pleasedrink5.jpg


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

nada wrote:

Not sure if it's obvious in the picture below - there's a lot of horizontal tooling marks inside.  Not wheel thrown I think, but probably handmade on a small hand turned wheel.  Different from many handmade pots which have tooling marks vertically in the inside of the pot.

Yeah - can't comment one way or the other about the authenticity (other than the comment below). I've seen those horizontal tooling marks too; in fact, the most recently purchased one of mine (and the most convincingly possibly authentic one I have so far) has some very interesting marks inside. A couple of the ones I think are fakes also have these marks, and at first, I thought they were wheel thrown and thus probably Taiwanese imitations. But since then, I've decided they're probably just made on a small wheel of the sort used by Yixing potters, along with some small tools for smoothing the insides. Unfortunately, still haven't perfected my taking pictures of the inside of pots technique - I think you really need a good light box or hand light to pull it off, or a really good angle with natural light.

The maker's seal under the lid looks like the same name as a couple of mine (巧英). I think that style and that type of lid seal would probably be for an older pot if authentic, but I don't know that for sure.

The small indentation on the right of the seal is very common. Not sure if it's trying to imitate the wear on certain types of seals (wood ones) like this:
http://forum.potsart.com/attachments/month_0801/20080116_90573d35030105fbfc67ADA7xkpF9guL.jpg
or if that was actually carved into some of the seals that were used. I've seen ones that are more clear, like this one:
http://forum.potsart.com/attachments/month_0802/20080226_293777eef8cff31ce5f3kXfJcv5raQqK.jpg
Others have a slight indentation on the lefthand side:
http://forum.potsart.com/attachments/month_0812/20081224_684c4bb1f99a9cc9621e57QFRbgYQtJF.jpg
[images hotlinked from the potsart forum; hopefully they won't mind]

Maybe they started out with a clear divet like that (on the right, near the bottom) and then started showing signs of wear with time.

Hard to tell in the pictures, but I think that a lot of the older ones (early-mid 70s) have the type of spout where only the top of the spout, not the whole line of the spout, is in line with the lid / handle.

I'm starting to give up on trying to ever completely authenticate pots like this (though I won't stop trying to learn more about them) -- they were made over a wide period of time, during a time period when quality control and consistency weren't big goals, they were originally mostly pretty low-grade commercial / promotional products, and according to Tim, they were made at at least 2 other factories besides #1 Factory.

I think someone with a lot of knowledge and experience could probably rule out a lot of pots that are floating around as probable or definite fakes. But as marshaln has pointed out, a lot of the fakes out there have been around for quite some time as well, and a lot of those are probably also made with pretty good materials.

10 (edited by chrl42 2009-05-30 11:05:51)

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Qing Yin Zhong Guo Wu Long Cha

story 1.

First period: appeared in 1965, has Hong Tu (Mt. Huanglong Hongni) and Zini, Hong Tu is 6-cup (about 90~100ml) and Zini is 4-cup(about6~70ml). Because Hong Tu has higher shrinkage than Zini so stamp used were just the same that were 5:銀鳳,巧英,梅雲,志琴, and no stamp. Among them 銀鳳 is the most expensive Clay good to pouring quality good. Once absorbing water just color changed, less than 10 pouring just turns glossy

Second period: appeard about 15 years ago(1985), orange-ish color and rough texture. Clay quality was so-so so not so valuable. (沒有行情-what does it mean? market was not settled? or not valueable?)

Third period: appeared about 12(1990) years ago, mined "甜年糕土(cake-clay, as Taiwainese called), or pig-liver-red". Because it got attention, but at that time most of pots were ornamental and made small, so also 沒有行情


story 2.

Qing Yin Zhong Guo Wu Long Cha(8 or 10-cup)(22-letter stamp):
period: late 70's~early 80's. 福建茶葉公司 asked "宜興紫砂工藝廠" (factory no.1) to order the huge amount of “中國土產畜產進出口公司福建省分公司廈門支公司"'s Shui Pin, clay used were Hongni and QingShuini, size were 10-cup (150~160ml) mostly or 8-cup (120~130ml). Letters carved were "請飲" above and”中國烏龍茶”below, small teaboat and 6 small cups all made by the same clay. These pots sold in Taiwan, the price was high.


I started studying and collecting early-pots nowadays. 2 pots I bought recently are 2 biao zhun from 丁丑年(1997), was the last year of Factory no.1
These and 90's Taiwanese pre-ordered pots are roaming around cheap. The clay seems typical Pin Zini, seems to be filtered small. Anybody knows more about them?

一杯一杯復一杯

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Of course you might have noticed there 2 differnt seals of 22-letter (one started with 中國, one with 中国), a simplified one only came after late-80's and stayed til early-90's

Also, clay used were not only Hongni and Qing Shui ni, also Pin Liao (mixed clay) were used.


And Qing Yin Zhog Guo Wu Long with flower on the the side (has apricot, bamboo, orchid and chrysanthemum as a set), I heard it was ordered by some Fujian company, made to export (Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, SE asia), during late-80 to early-90, clay used I saw were Hong Pin (Hongni and Zini mixed and are there other clays?)

一杯一杯復一杯

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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Let me continue..

The simplified Chinese version of 22-letter Qing Yin~ had only Chuanbu Hongni and Pin Zini..Chuanbu Hongni is orange-ish red clay that lately replaced Xiao Hongni in Factory-1.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/3847718291_b8951194e9.jpg
Chuanbu Hongni Qing Yin~/ made during late-80's~early-90's

Also, Fujian company did make 荊溪南孟臣製 stamp one (not Qing Yin). Says it was made to export to Taiwan, to survive from inspection (during 8~90's lots of Yixings/teas were brought back to China, busted at the border to Taiwan)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2442/3848510366_b3ac0b8775.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3531/3848510802_283baeb309.jpg
made during 80's, Nei Zi Wai Hong

一杯一杯復一杯

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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

chrl42 wrote:

And Qing Yin Zhog Guo Wu Long with flower on the the side (has apricot, bamboo, orchid and chrysanthemum as a set), I heard it was ordered by some Fujian company, made to export (Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, SE asia), during late-80 to early-90, clay used I saw were Hong Pin (Hongni and Zini mixed and are there other clays?)

chrl - I came across a set in Taiwan which the owner said he had stored himself since the early 80's.  He said he'd bought them in around 1982.  They were made of pure Zini (not Hong Pin), though I've seen the Hong Pin sets you mention.


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

chrl42 wrote:

Let me continue..

The simplified Chinese version of 22-letter Qing Yin~ had only Chuanbu Hongni and Pin Zini..Chuanbu Hongni is orange-ish red clay that lately replaced Xiao Hongni in Factory-1.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/384 … 1194e9.jpg
Chuanbu Hongni Qing Yin~/ made during late-80's~early-90's

I have one that looks like this... I will try to take a picture. Similar clay texture, similar writing.

Is that a Mei Yun stamp (梅云) under the lid?. I thought she was only a potter much earlier, and that you wouldn't see it on late 80s / early 90s pots.

15 (edited by chrl42 2009-11-07 09:04:30)

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Today I bought Qing Yin~ 6-cup Shui Ping (22-letter, traditional Chinese), mine almost looks the same as Tim's MACANUDO pot.

The seller said it's late-CR but from what I know, traditional Chinese version only came after early-80's, looks like Pin Zini I'm thinking it fixing for Shu

I'm also planning to purchase the same Hongni one for Yancha..not easy to find...


I love the clay too, very smooth on tea towel, relatively heavy which explains enough iron amount

Letter inside the lid says 公美


*clay is incredible, it currently tops the list of 'fastest seasoning clay', dropping Mo Lvni to no.2

I think it's due to the amount of iron, haven't seen clays as heavy as this so often..

一杯一杯復一杯

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16 (edited by chrl42 2009-11-06 15:43:15)

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

william wrote:
chrl42 wrote:

Let me continue..

The simplified Chinese version of 22-letter Qing Yin~ had only Chuanbu Hongni and Pin Zini..Chuanbu Hongni is orange-ish red clay that lately replaced Xiao Hongni in Factory-1.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/384 … 1194e9.jpg
Chuanbu Hongni Qing Yin~/ made during late-80's~early-90's

I have one that looks like this... I will try to take a picture. Similar clay texture, similar writing.

Is that a Mei Yun stamp (梅云) under the lid?. I thought she was only a potter much earlier, and that you wouldn't see it on late 80s / early 90s pots.

Name of stamp isn't that important, is it? It may be an imitation by Taiwanese sellers lately, I could be wrong. This Qing Yin~ discussion, even among experienced collectors have a lot of different opinions, (I heard back in Taiwan there was a seminar discussing this, that led to nowhere), but relatively agreed opinions are, Hongni version (late-60's or early 70's) came earlier than Zini version (late-70's or early-80's), some says traditional Chinese came earlier some say simplifed came earlier, this I've no idea,

But my opinion on 'real' Qing Yin Shui Ping is, it's made carefully and clays are recognizable (Pin Zini, some say Qing Shui ni and Chuanbu Hongni, some say Xiao Hongni)

Away from a headache, below is Fujian Co. ordered late-60's 'Qing Yin~

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3213/4080714248_3cc68edca6.jpg
Stamp is Jing Xi Hui Meng Chen Zhi, shape and clay both outdo later 22-letter versions, some wish for us potheads :P

一杯一杯復一杯

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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

I got what I believed to be one of these pots a little over a year ago, said to be 80s, xiao hong ni, and 80 ml, +/-. It's interesting because the Chinese on the side of the pot is completely different. The bottom seal is also very different. I tried to take representative pictures of each:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4053/4283208424_34107068bd.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4037/4282463249_3120e0e0fd.jpg
(Click here for a bigger version of the seal photo.)
[small image link corrected - wby]

There's also a number 8 stamped inside the lid, best seen in this picture here:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2621/3959162019_ef4a0d2b84.jpg

I didn't white balance the top two pictures at all, so the last one is most representative of the pot's true color.

Any opinions?


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Thought this was worth pointing out, just for the photo porn.
Chinglish link: http://www.china-xmtea.com/doccen/cywh.asp
Simplified Chinese: http://www.china-xmtea.com/docccn/cywh.asp


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

Most of my CNNP pots together:
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_family_picture_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_family_picture2_SM.jpg

I recently acquired this set, supposedly from the late 80s / early 90s, from a seller in Malaysia. The teaware matches the quality of the tea, which is to say, it's not high-end - the pot feels quite dry, and the writing on the dishes is fainter than on many examples I've seen. Is this fake, or just low quality stuff (I'm leaning towards the latter).

http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_2_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_1_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_3_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_4_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_5_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_set_6_SM.jpg

From the same seller, I also picked up a 4 cup size (~ 80 ml) hongni pot with the CNNP text on the front, a shanshui scene on the back, no lid seal, and 中國宜興 on the bottom. The pot appears almost to have been dipped in hongni slip - it's red both inside and out, but there's some brownish parts showing near the rim. Not sure if this one is real.

http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_hongni_pot_1_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_hongni_pot_2_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_hongni_pot_3_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/cnnp_hongni_pot_4_SM.jpg

Two more pieces, from two different Taiwanese sellers.

4 cup (70-80 ml) zisha pot, in the style of the fairly early ones, though not sure about its provenance.

This is from when it was newish:
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/TN_3qing_yin1.jpg
http://veggiechinese.net/teadrunk/TN_3qing_yin3.jpg

And this is it now:
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/3qing_yin5_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/3qing_yin4_SM.jpg

This last one is a 'mei yun' (梅雲) lid seal hongni 6 cup pot, meaning it's in the style of a 70s one. The seller claims it's genuine.

http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/4qing_yin_3_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/4qing_yin_4_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/4qing_yin_1_SM.jpg
http://soulrebels.com/teadrunk/4qing_yin_2_SM.jpg

Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

I really like the cracked look. Is that a result of the teaware actually having being broken and then glued back together, or maybe just cracks in the finish?


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Re: Qing Yin Zhongguo Wulong Cha pots / tea boats

TeaGuyInTheCity wrote:

I really like the cracked look. Is that a result of the teaware actually having being broken and then glued back together, or maybe just cracks in the finish?

Cracked-glaze / crazing just has to do with the glaze. In this case, it's done intentionally, rather than being a flaw.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazing